Stuart Black (00:00):
I had a great conversation this week with John Pearce, CEO of Made in Britain, an organisation that's helping British manufacturers sell more with one mark. We talked about localising supply chains, how products are sourced, what we do about the scarcity of resources and challenges for new and growing UK manufacturers. From Red-Fern Media, this is ReMake Manufacturing. My guest this week is John Pearce, CEO of Made in Britain, the official collective mark for British manufacturers across 30 product classes. Their aim is to bring together the entire manufacturing community in Britain, and they're growing very fast, taking on new members all the time. So here to tell us all about it, John Pearce, welcome to the show.
John Pearce (00:51):
Thank you very much for having me. Pleased to be here.
Stuart Black (00:53):
So tell us more about Made in Britain, who are your members, and how do you help them?
John Pearce (00:58):
The members are all manufacturers. So we are in a long-term effort really, to try and unify all of the manufacturers in Britain, most of our members are SME manufacturers, so their businesses is turning over 30 million or less, but we do have 5 percent of our membership that are turning over 30 million or more, which puts them into a different category. But essentially, this is a group of SME, thriving manufacturers, and we put them all together in the same database. And we unify them under what's called the Made in Britain Collective Mark, which is the official mark that lots of people have seen, hopefully on the millions of products that are using it now.
John Pearce (01:36):
So the effort of our organisation is really to bring these businesses together and to help them to celebrate their manufacturing credentials. But also improve their chances of success in the future by learning from each other, using the mark to emphasise that they are British manufacturers, that they're here and they're meaningfully employing people to make high-quality products in this country. And the mark is something that we want to add value to every year by reminding people that it is important to buy things that are made closer to where they're needed.
Stuart Black (02:07):
Absolutely. And how big is the group? How many members are in it, and how fast are you growing at the moment?
John Pearce (02:12):
We grew much faster last year than in previous years, we've tended to grow over the years at the rate of one a day, generally speaking, so 30 a month, last year, we grew more than 40 a month. And there was a lot of different reasons for that. We promoted the mark a lot more, the mark is being seen, the more members that join, the more other manufacturers realised that there is an effort here to promote manufacturing, and to promote high-quality manufactured goods that are made in this country together, and to do it in this way. And we think that that increased emphasis on locally made, brought about by the pandemic, and maybe the run-up to the Brexit, maybe those two things worked together in our favour. But generally speaking, we add a new member every day, so 30 to 40 every month, and that's part of the beauty of the organisation - that it grows, and it grows in influence and impact as the membership number grows.
Stuart Black (03:09):
So, snowballing fast. What does membership in the community get for members? How do they help each other?
John Pearce (03:15):
Well, our objective as an organisation is one really, we only have one purpose, and that's to help the member sell more with one mark. And so what they principally get for their membership and license fee is the license to use the mark as much as possible. We have extreme users. I would call them people who are using the mark on absolutely everything. So they'll put it obviously on their product to identify their product, they'll use it on their trade show displays, they'll put it obviously in their digital media, in their social media, in their corporate communications, and some even put it on the workwear of the employees that are working for them. But essentially, the first benefit of membership is that you've got the license for one year to be part of the organisation, to use the mark, and to use the mark as a marketing asset for your business.
John Pearce (04:03):
But then we do add on a lot of... Let's call them other benefits to membership, primarily publishing what you do via our free-for-membership news channel. So there is a news service for members that we edit, members tell us what they're up to, they tell us how they're succeeding, we publish those stories with images and sometimes videos. And we have our own bespoke news channel that is only for British manufacturers that are members of Made in Britain, and we push that message out about the collective nature of the group and how it's growing. We push that message out to social media and to conventional PR as well, that's part of the objective of what we do. And then the other thing is that members can network with each other, manufacturers are uniquely reliant on each other, and they all make something, we have a really beautiful statistic about Made in Britain membership, is that half of our members are making a retail product and the others are making something trade or industrial.
John Pearce (05:06):
And by putting these manufacturers all together, of lots of different sizes and locations around the country, we're also helping them to reset the supply chain around things that they didn't know were made here that can be part of their componentry, or their supply chain. Revolutionary new materials for example, that might be made by another manufacturer or sourced by another manufacturer, and these are businesses that are prepared to drop their competitive guard a little bit and actually share that knowledge for the sake of a better and more efficient manufacturing community. And with the challenges of resources and costs at the moment, then that's more important every day, actually, for our members that are needing raw materials to actually know where other members are, because sometimes that might be literally down the road in some cases, and giving them visibility with each other is as much of a priority for us as anything else.
Stuart Black (06:04):
Yeah, absolutely. That sense of community feels so important with all the challenges facing the manufacturing world today, which we're going to get onto. And pulling back a little bit to talk about the industry, what would you say is the state of the manufacturing sector in the UK today?
John Pearce (06:17):
I think there is a lot of evidence for optimism.
Stuart Black (06:21):
John Pearce (06:22):
Yeah, as an organisation, we are famously, actually... Our Chairman often says we're relentlessly optimistic about the sector, we have to be, we have to be optimistic, but I think this year, there have been lots of reasons to just see more red flags on the risk register. I would say understanding the businesses across membership, and I try to speak to a broad profile of our members as often as possible. There is still optimism that the future of manufacturing locally is good, and the procurement professionals that we speak to, that actually speak to members to help give them guidance on how to succeed in procurement with UK Government, and other government bodies, and procurement professionals.
John Pearce (07:16):
There is a move towards wanting to know more about what is actually made here, and who's making it. And there is definitely a trend that we're seeing in the surveying that we do, and with reading the new stories that come in, there is a trend for buyers and consumers to want to know where something has come from and who's made it, frankly. I mean, it's an emphasis, I suppose, on proximity over price. We run an annual survey for propensity for buying British made goods, we run it to see whether we're making a difference or not. We've been running it for the past four years, and we definitely are making a difference.
John Pearce (07:53):
But in a year that we're having at the moment, with all of the different business challenges, some of which are completely out of the control of manufacturers, I would say there is still a broad mood of optimism. But with realism about what they've got to do and how they've got to adapt to fill in the gaps, because there will be gaps in manufacturing, and those will be revealed as more and more people decide to procure their products from a local manufacturer that's in Britain, and consumers decide to buy something that's made closer to where they live.
Stuart Black (08:27):
And it makes organisations such as yours that support the industry seem so much more important with the challenges that we've been facing, as you say over the last couple of years. Just focusing on those for a minute, what would you say are maybe the top three issues that the industry is facing? What are the most pressing challenges?
John Pearce (08:44):
If we're speaking within the constraints of say, one month, I mean, there are new business challenges every day almost at the moment. But I would say certainly, inflation actually, inflation in the price of raw materials, and whether that's brought about by the increase in shipping costs, which everyone is saying is happening, and it's definitely projected to carry on for the foreseeable future. And I think controlling your costs and managing the risks, I think is the main area of work that manufacturers have to do. And if you can learn within the network of Made in Britain or any of the other sector-specific trade bodies, because there are lots of... The focus on say, specifically one type of product, but the knowledge that you can share across membership of a manufacturing organisation is unique, of course, because only manufacturers have the multiple challenge of an increase in price in logistics, but also a fluctuation and sometimes a very dramatic fluctuation in the price of their raw materials.
John Pearce (09:53):
And this is what's leading manufacturers to look at alternative materials and starting to address what waste they're sending off the premises, and can that be turned into raw materials for someone else? And again, you come back to the interconnectivity of manufacturing, how they are reliant on each other in lots of different ways. And we're just giving them a platform to connect quicker and better with the right businesses that can help them address these challenges. To be honest, I think inflation is... The inflation of both shipping costs and raw material prices, I think that's the primary challenge that we all have at the moment, because what do we do about it when we know the projections are quite eye-watering when you look at the price of things going up?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
ReMake Manufacturing is brought to you by Red-Fern Media, the digital agency for B2B manufacturers. We partner with B2B manufacturers to listen, think, create, and innovate. To find out more, head over to remakemanufacturing.com, and sign up to the podcast, plus manufacturing, marketing, and technology insights. Now, back to the show.
Stuart Black (11:00):
Well, moving sideways to a slight different issue then. Skill shortages have long been an issue for the industry. From your point of view, what measures do you think have been working, and what else do we need to try to be more effective?
John Pearce (11:13):
I've been working with British manufacturers now for six years, so I was appointed six years ago. And I've got to know quite a few of the businesses that obviously are members of Made in Britain, many of them, most of them have actually been members for that entire time, so they've chosen to stay with us if you like. I've never really understood the difference between how some people talk about the British manufacturing sector and say that there's a skills shortage, and there is a perception that it's perhaps dirty work. The thing is, I think with manufacturing at the SME level, let's say the smaller manufacturers, there is an enormous variety of work to do at a typical manufacturing business. Let's say they're employing 100 people, at least 10 percent of those will be doing something other than actually making the product, and in some cases, it will be a lot higher than that.
John Pearce (12:11):
And I think the skill shortages, the way they're addressed, I think is actually by members getting to know each other, and by changing the message a little bit about what skills are required. Highly skilled work obviously requires somebody that's been highly trained and highly skilled learning how to do a specific thing within a factory. But we don't have a shortage of skilled people in the marketing sector, or the procurement sector, or lots of the other industries and sectors that are required to make up a successful manufacturing business. And I think it's this complexity of what happens at a manufacturing site that is really unique, and that people sometimes overlook when they consider that yeah, we do need more skilled people, there are certain skilled areas of manufacturing where there are shortages, but there certainly isn't a shortage of attractive work to do at a manufacturing site. And one of the things I know about manufacturers anecdotally from our members is that they all make the effort to move people around within the manufacturing environment.
John Pearce (13:15):
So even if you join a manufacturing business with a certain set of skills, there is ample opportunity for you to do something else because frankly, every profession is needed at a manufacturer. To make a manufacturer successful, you need great lawyers, you need great designers, great marketeers, great administrators, great finances, you need absolutely every single human skillset on board within a manufacturing business to make it work. And I've only ever seen a really attractive working environment filled with people doing meaningful, interesting work. I'm sure that we can evolve the message about manufacturing to say, "Look, this is really interesting, skilled employment, and just come on board." And that's a message that we... We act as a platform for that message, really, and our members by sharing their good news about... Yeah, they tell us when they've increased their employment or they're looking for new people, they tell us and we help disseminate that news for them to try and shift the needle on positive messages about the skills requirement, and perhaps make the skills emphasis a bit more accurate.
Stuart Black (14:24):
Well, that positive messaging still, it's a bit stubborn the way the perception has been stuck on factories being grubby, dirty places where unskilled workers are grafting away. When the reality is, as you say, there's all kinds of skills involved and often the manufacturing is high-tech, and modern, and quite exciting. So what is the strategy for shifting the needle on that?
John Pearce (14:47):
Well, our primary strategy is to grow the organisation. As of saying earlier, if we grow the organisation and number of members that are sharing their good news with the broad public, our strategy is to increase the size of the platform that we give those members. We also have a strategy of maintaining an affordable membership system, so the members who join Made in Britain, they have to qualify, they have to share with us a long list of detail on their business, we call this extreme transparency, really, in membership. And we use the asset of that transparency to give visibility to the sector and to move the needle on, for example, attractiveness of the sector itself to the general public and to consumers as well. And then the other way that we're moving the needle is by getting more and more members to use the mark on their products so that consumers and buyers know exactly what is made where. So every product that you see with a Made in Britain mark on it, with a registered Made in Britain Collective Mark, you've got traceability of that product back to our website.
John Pearce (15:59):
So our members can also publish details of their products, up to 25 of their products will appear on our website, that is then circled back to their membership directory page, which has all the details of their business. So the transparency is really our greatest weapon in proving to people that look, yeah, you can choose something based on criteria of proximity. Yes, price will always be an issue for everything, but fit for purpose, quality, responsibility, and proximity are actually equally important, and we're trying to give a platform for all of those criteria. And actually, the more members that use the mark on their products and to identify them as a business, then the more people will be exposed to this verification system that we are establishing.
Stuart Black (16:46):
And as you said earlier, with Brexit and the pandemic forcing people away from difficult trade situations, does that mean there's a new focus on localising supply chains? What have you seen there?
John Pearce (17:00):
I think there is a focus on localising supply chains, I also think the word local is evolving last year and this year, I think people used to refer to local as some locally made honey, or cheese, or something. But when the PPE crisis hit the beginning of last year, we noticed a sudden uptick in literally dozens of our members deciding to make PPE, and not just for themselves, but actually make it and supply it to local businesses, and in some cases, to the healthcare sector. And this move across the year that was really addressing the emergency of lead times on PPE and availability of PPE, I think that did shift the public consciousness about where stuff comes from, and is it fit for purpose, and safe? And personally, I think that has evolved the word local, so that now we can, in the vocabulary of Made in Britain, we can quite easily talk about local manufacturing as being locally, as in this country, which is only ever going to be two or three hours drive away from somewhere.
John Pearce (18:11):
You've got a locality of Britain, but then you've also got locally made as in members, they're getting together in regional clusters, because we have proximity and measures at Made in Britain, we know exactly where our members are, they know where their factories are, we identify those together. We can actually tell our members, if they're holding an event, for example, we can tell them all of the manufacturers making all sorts of other things that are within a drive away from where they are, if they want to invite them to a PR event or to an important launch of a manufacturing investment. That's something that the platform of Made in Britain does almost uniquely, is put them in touch with local manufacturers to them. So I think there is a move, I think the local dial is moving, and I think it has progressed for society too to think, "Well, yeah, locally made can be local as in up the road or local as in within the geographical confines of the country that we live in."
Stuart Black (19:09):
And connected to that, another issue high on everyone's agenda these days is sustainability. So what are you seeing in the manufacturing industry about how this issue is evolving? How can we improve things there?
John Pearce (19:22):
This is certainly a very serious issue for manufacturers, and I would argue that it's more serious for manufacturers than any other business, because manufacturers can't greenwash of course, they are lumbered with the enormous consequences of using loads of energy, because nearly all of our members will be needing serious amounts of energy, not anything else. You need energy to make things, you need labor, obviously, so you have to employ people, and in this country, you've got to employ them fairly, and you've got to pay them properly. But then the real change maker, if you like, for manufacturing is of course, that they are lumbered with something that no other business sector really has as much, and that is resource scarcity. Our members are all using raw materials to make something with people on a factory premises, and the element of where are your raw materials coming from? How much are you sending in waste? To how much are you paying for somebody to take the waste of your premises? These are factors that are existential threats to manufacturing.
John Pearce (20:36):
And we've understood this for a long time at Made in Britain, we have some incredibly green members. We put a working group together last year, and actually designed our own manufacturing survey and platform for our members, where they can evaluate their business through the lens of sustainability. And we've done that in partnership with the UN Global Compact on the Sustainable Development Goal 12, so that all of the results of the member survey, when they're completed, are actually recognisable with universally agreed sustainability, science-based targets. This is a project that's absolute priority for us, because we know that members are using raw materials, we know, as we were just saying, that raw materials are going up in price, and that members, no matter how big or small their businesses are, they're going to have to make an evaluation as to what is the future of the real materials that they're buying, and where are they coming from, and what are the negative consequences of that on the environment and the society that we live in?
John Pearce (21:40):
And so our solution, if you'd like, to that is to set up what we call the Green Growth platform, members can complete, free of charge, a survey, it's quite a detailed survey, but it essentially unpacks their sustainability challenges, and it gives them a self-checker as to where they are. But we also point them to high quality advice, both from other members, and from outside parties, and from government as to how they can move their own green needle and improve their sustainability above all else, because frankly, if you don't have a sustainability message these days in business, you really better have one pretty quick. All of us are living through this, as individuals, we're all thinking, "Oh, God, I'm throwing out this much waste every week," well, businesses have that in the extreme.
John Pearce (22:28):
And we want to focus their efforts, we know that so many of our members are doing extremely interesting circular projects where they're taking raw materials or they're taking old products and converting them back into high quality raw materials to make the same product again, to give it extra longevity. And we have plenty of members that are accepting their own products back to factory, which is a practice, in some cases, has been going on for years. And of course, without the platform to talk about that, then it becomes very hard for a member to use their marketing material to change their message. But we do believe in that at Made in Britain, we know that it's a unique challenge. And for manufacturing, I would argue that it's as important, if not more important than the climate change net zero debate, which is obviously of vital importance, but it's not the only important issue for a manufacturing business when you're using large volumes of raw materials, which all have red flags of risk around scarcity and price.
Stuart Black (23:30):
Very interesting. The pandemic then, it's seen lots of new businesses setting up, but manufacturers have a very different set of challenges to other sectors, for example, an online business, it's very easy to set up a business quite quickly that way, what would you say are the key challenges for new and growing UK manufacturers?
John Pearce (23:51):
Well, as I said before, the pandemic really brought out the best in British manufacturing in my view. We saw plenty of manufacturers that pivoted towards making PPE. But I think the peak of the pandemic, let's say in the middle of last year, our manufacturers in the main were still at work, they were obeying social distancing rules, and in many of our manufacturers... We have 20 percent of our manufacturers that are working construction sector, for example, are making construction products, and they would be feeding their products into the construction sector as normal, and much of the construction industry didn't really take the lockdown in the same way as the general public did. I think the lesson learned is that we need to know where things come from and who's making them. In a pandemic or any other national emergency, that information becomes absolutely vital to everyone.
John Pearce (24:51):
And I think it comes back to transparency. With the members that are now making PPE, some of them for the first time, but others have just expanded their PPE portfolio because of the pandemic, there's nothing to hide with these businesses, and that's really important if you want, in the case of PPE, you want it to actually be fit for purpose. That is the primary issue with PPE, was that it should be fit for purpose, it should be medically appropriate, it should be specified exactly as it's meant to be specified so that it works to do what it's meant to do.
John Pearce (25:26):
And I think that renewed emphasis on responsibility of business, and especially manufacturers when we're talking about making PPE or any other healthcare equipment locally, I think the responsibility that they take is perhaps my key takeaway for the whole year, is that now we want a responsible business to provide a product that is fit for purpose. And maybe that means demoting the price banner from first down to third in the pecking order, maybe, I think that time will tell. But it feels there is a move towards wanting to know the measures of responsibility, transparency, and quality first, and then add those to the mix of a very specific and very binary price decision.
Stuart Black (26:19):
Absolutely. And as you say, so many manufacturers stepping up and looking after PPE supply during the last year or so, it's a really positive heroic story, isn't it? And one that often gets forgotten a little bit, but when you shine a light on it, everyone does remember that it's saved our bacon.
John Pearce (26:40):
Yeah. Well, our sector doubled in size, our sector for... I would say the sector that are making something in the health care or PPE sector, we now have twice as many members in that field as we had before. And I would expect that to carry on increasing as some of the PPE manufacturing comes back, or hopefully, all of it comes back, the figure that was often quoted was that we used to source 5 percent of British made PPE in this country, and that it's now close to 50. I can't remember exactly who quoted that, but I shouldn't remember that. But if we can move that dial even further on lots of other sectors without the emergency of a pandemic behind us, then I think that's a good thing. It will certainly reduce the carbon footprint of those products if they're not coming in from a thousand miles away, wherever that is, it's a lot further than if they're coming from 20 miles away.
Stuart Black (27:41):
So broadening out then, John, as you reflect on five years being CEO of Made in Britain, what trends have been most interesting to you in terms of the growth of the manufacturing sector?
John Pearce (27:51):
It has been an absolutely fascinating journey, I have to say. I mean, I tend not to say much anymore, but I used to say to my chairman, "I'd do this for free if I could afford to." Because it is a fascinating examination of a very specific sector that's brought together a diversity of manufacturing businesses that I don't think exists anywhere else in this way. There is a professor up at UCAS University that's writing a paper about how this is the first time in Made in Britain that manufacturers have come together independently to create their own mark, and also to support and back their own mark, so we are owned entirely by our members, our members dictate what we do, we serve our members with the membership fee that they pay every year, and we do it very proudly.
John Pearce (28:38):
In terms of trends that we've seen over the five years, I mean, there have been a number of different movements, I think in the past two years, I would say the Sustainability Green Movement has been really influential, and that's only fitting given the emergency that we're in with a climate, and biodiversity, and resource scarcity. But I think in the early years, the thing that struck me most actually was how these were businesses that were content to just get along, and do what they do, and sell what they sell without much publicity for themselves, but they seem to be enjoying the publicity and visibility that they get as a result of being in the group. And I think that says a lot about manufacturing sector, that these are our characters, if you like, in business. It's nothing extraordinary at all in membership of Made in Britain to have a member that's been around for 100 years or more, that's not an extraordinary business in our group. We have plenty, I mean, hundreds that have been around for 40, 50, or 60 years.
John Pearce (29:43):
But there are... From guesswork, I would say there are 10 or maybe more that have been around for 100 years. And that kind of longevity is something that you very rarely hear about in the business news. All too often, business news is about fast growth, and protagonism, and entrepreneurialism. These are, I would say, extreme collaborators, they are businesses that know how to get along in the economic environment that they're lumbered with, very often, they will have been through... In the case of the 100-year-old businesses, they might have been through two world wars and multiple economic recessions, but they are great businesses with a character that really does start with responsibility for the local and regional communities that they're in.
John Pearce (30:32):
And they don't grow fast, they grow properly. And they do take product responsibility, really, as strongly as their responsibility to the employees that they've got. And I think that overall is a complex mix, if you like, of social economic impact of the group when we give it more visibility, so that people can see what is the impact of buying something that's locally made, that's going to last for 20, or 30, or 40 years, as opposed to buying something that's not locally made that might only last for one. And I think that movement, if you like, that we're trying to put eyes and teeth on that movement, I think is going to be of great public value actually for people to know what it means to buy a responsible product from a responsible maker.
Stuart Black (31:25):
Absolutely. Looking ahead then, what advice would you give to British manufacturers listening to the show at the moment about the next couple of years?
John Pearce (31:34):
Crikey, that's a lot of advice. You may have heard, but manufacturing is apparently the most risky business you can get into. And that doesn't surprise me at all, I mean, I learned that before I got into representing this group of incredible businesses. But the advice, really, I think the first advice is join Made in Britain. Make sure that you know what you're getting into, as you're joining Made in Britain would be a good way to do that, but you can't join unless you're already a manufacturer. But no, it is important that you know what the risk set is.
John Pearce (32:11):
Risk analysis is vital in business, obviously, and risk analysis within a manufacturing business is different, it's harder, it's more complex, you need more skills, you may need more variety of skills on the premises to do all of the risk assessment around what it means to be a manufacturer of something in this country, because all the other variables of affordable labor, and skillsets, and raw materials, and things, all of those are obviously factors, but it's being able to make a proper assessment of everything that could go wrong with your project, and what you're wanting to do, and how long it will take you to create a network of supportive businesses, and colleagues, and others, that will be able to see you through the first three years.
John Pearce (33:00):
The other thing I would say is make sure you've got your funding really locked, tight, and secure, and that you're not making it up as you go along, because you can't do that in manufacturing. One of your risk sets is... If you want to make something and sell it profitably in this country, you've got to be able to make a high quality product that is fit for purpose, safe, and available within a certain timeframe. And to do all of those things, you can't rely on unreliable funding, you got to know where the money is coming from. There are funders out there for manufacturing, but they will need a lot more detail than just the risk of the person's time and a few laptop computers, that's not the risk set in manufacturing.
John Pearce (33:49):
So yeah, I will say join Made in Britain perhaps, or at least speak to Made in Britain so that we can put you in touch with lots of other manufacturers. And in fact, there are some really good news on that, we have seen some brand new entrepreneurial manufacturers appearing during lockdown that have come to us and they've joined Made in Britain having already started to make a product in this country. And they've joined us to get to know the manufacturing community. And that was a really strong sign because it definitely is harder to be a successful manufacturer when you're doing on your own. In fact, I would say that's perhaps the best advice, don't do it by yourself, find a group of people who are competent with all the skills that you're going to need to do it. But give it a try, it's a fascinating area of work, and it's stimulating to try, and make a product, and sell it successfully and profitably in this country.
Stuart Black (34:40):
Well, as you say, it is tough out there, but it's good to know you guys are there to hold people's hands. It's very reassuring. So we'll end the show the same way we do every week by asking our guest to tell us the one invention that if it was never manufactured, your life would be unbearable. What could you not live without?
John Pearce (34:56):
Goodness me. I think it would have to be my camera. Actually, I'm a keen amateur photographer and I shoot on film.
Stuart Black (35:09):
John Pearce (35:11):
And I've been a keen amateur for about 40 years, so I'm still a keen amateur, but I'm still an amateur. But yeah, I couldn't live without the camera, the way I spend my spare time is taking pictures on film.
Stuart Black (35:22):
And is it manufacturing that you're shooting?
John Pearce (35:25):
No. Well, I shoot all sorts of things, landscapes, and family portraits, and all sorts of things. And we have professionals to take pictures of our manufacturers.
Stuart Black (35:36):
Oh, okay. Fair enough.
John Pearce (35:37):
No, but I do enjoy photography, and I think I would be... Yeah, I would be devastated if nobody had invented the camera for me.
Stuart Black (35:46):
Okay. Well, you can take that to the desert island then. All it leaves me to do is say thanks to today's guest, John Pearce.
John Pearce (35:52):
Thank you very much for having me.
Stuart Black (35:54):